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Post by Jazz on Jul 11, 2004 20:31:49 GMT -5
Hey SuperJ. Thanks for your info about hockey in Poland. Here is a question I also posted to another Pole on this forum, Lukasz a couple of months ago...You may, or may not want to comment on it... Hey Lukasz. Dzien dobry! That is a wonderful tid-bit on the Pope! I've always wondered this: Poland has 7 neighboring countries (8 is you cound the Baltic boundary with Sweden). Out of all them, only 1 is not in the Top 16 ranked in the workd (Lithuania). With hockey doing decent in all these other countries, how come the sport never became part of the culture in Poland? Also, do Mariusz Czerkawski and Krystof Oliwa get much media play in Poland? Did Oliwa at all bring the Stanley cup there when he won it with the Devils in 2000? Dowidzenia! Gurj. And his response: I also many times wondered how it is possible!! I think that it is plenty of reasons what it is like it is. We never had good national team, even when we played in Pool A, when only 6 teams played there, we always have last place. Peoples never saw any success like in football or volleyball and it is natural that they interested more in another sports. Kids don’t have their idols in hockey national team but in other sports and in results they didn’t play hockey. In the past TV always have coverage only from WCH Pool A (our matches and usually semis and final) and if we play there Pool B matches (only with Poland). Later TV have coverage only from semis and finals because we don’t play in Pool A and our Pool B matches they have only retransmitted at deep night and in fact no one watch this. Now we have many matches from Elite group, almost all from Division I (our group of course), 2 or 3 NHL (night) and rarely Polish league and Interleague (Poland, Slovenia, Hungary, Croatia) but all matches are in not free TV! TV always is very important aspect of promotion and practically we never had this promotion. Second aspect is that our government never invest in sport, sport arenas and especially not in hockey. Even now we don’t have good program to work with children, many clubs save their money for that. When we have communism all national firms must sponsored each sport teams and in fact also hockey teams, for example team from my city Stoczniowiec Gdansk was sponsored by Gdansk shipyard (Stocznia = shipyard, in polish). Now we have only this name, but we don’t have main sponsor as almost all our teams, most of them have problem with persist all season, and their rinks are old and should be modernized. Next problem is our president of hockey federation, he is president very long time (as I remember) and don’t have any idea how to change this situation. Hockey have a chance because in all soundings is most popular sport on TV in winter Olympics but someone must invest there. Mariusz Czerkawski is real star here, but all fans are happy when NYI play weak and don’t be promoted to playoffs because this is only one possibility to see him in Division I. Ideal situation is when he scores plenty of goals and NYI lose the match :-)), because only national team is important. But he often play in playoffs (first round usually) and we rarely can watch him. If he play in playoffs fans are unhappy but this is the moment when they star support NYI. In Division I such player like Czerkawski is really big star and power of polish team is much stronger (this is not a joke, one player can change many things there). In last season stupid (I must say this, sorry!) owner of Hamilton Bulldogs don’t give him possibility to play in AHL playoffs but also don’t allow to let him play for Poland! Krzysztof Oliwa isn’t star but he is very respected player. He wanted bring Stanley Cup here but as I remember he change team and Devils don’t give him this possibility. only problems as you see
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Post by SuperJ on Jul 11, 2004 21:51:42 GMT -5
Gurj, you're asking the question that is on many hockey minds in Poland. Why is it that while surrounded by hockey powers we are not able to compete with anybody.
Well, in general team sports in Poland are a major failure. Poland has been hit real hard during the WW2 and 45 years of Russian occupation. The 'flower of nation' - that is anyone educated with a patriotic mind - would be killed by Germans or imprisoned/killed by the Russians. Some were able to flee but they would never come back. I think this has put us back as a nation and it will take time to recover. It's not just sports that we are failing at. Over centuries Poland has produced many bright minds but after the WW2 there are very, very few. Poles are very charismatic but we need to redevelop leadership skills in order to get anywhere as a nation. That includes sports.
Someone who's reading this might say I'm wrong. Poland after all have recorded 3rd place in Soccer World Championships twice, had the Gold and Silver soccer medals at Olympics and a World Championship in Womens Basketball. Well, that's really not much to me. Especially that tournaments are usually based on a fluke. It's not a single run that defines a strong team - it's the repetetive starts and here we're failing on all angles. It's a major achievement for us to qualify for World Soccer Championships and we have never, ever played in the Euro Championships tournament. That says it all.
But it's one thing to be able to win occasionaly with a country like Czech Republic and another thing to never be able to even tie. Our soccer team is able to beat Czech Republic on a good day. Our hockey team will not even tie. But notice that Czech Republic is an interesting example here. Back as one country, the Czechs and Slovaks chose hockey as their national sport. They made it important - just like in Canada. Poles on the other hand did not make it important. The climate was such that season schedules could not be fulfilled and the sport became more and more expensive. We went for soccer and boxing instead. Other countries in the region treated hockey the same way for the same reason. Notice that East Germany, Austria, Hungary and Romania were rather weak. West Germany was a bit better than Poland but still weak. The powers included Soviet Union, Sweden and Finland - countries that had no problem with natural ice. Czechoslovakia joined in with hockey nas a national sport.
Last 15 years didn't change much in that regard. Our hockey based on mining coal collapsed and we got weaker. We've been trying to rebuild and we'll play with the best soon. Especially that the top group now includes 16 teams so it's easier. Japan's agreement with IIHF will also expire yielding one more space for Europe. But we will not be beating the best any time soon. Before we can win with a top nation, we need to sell hockey as a nation-wide sport and frankly, I don't see that happen.
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Post by SuperJ on Jul 11, 2004 22:05:38 GMT -5
As for the other question...
Czerkawski and Oliwa get enough of hockey media attention. They both get very little of media attention in general.
Oliwa's name is on the Stanley Cup but he didn't play even one post season game to get it. He only played regular season. Before the play offs he decided that his knee was more important than the chance for the cup so he left the team. New Jersey were furious and that's probably why they didn't let him take the cup back home.
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Post by Marc on Jul 12, 2004 3:11:19 GMT -5
What I think we need in Europe is an international hockey system. Poland could provide two, maybe three teams for such competition. Such a league would have it's own competetive system, good referees and steady supply of good product for the TV. Although I hate to call it 'product'. I can already imagine a team formed in Warsaw. There's definitely a need for hockey there but who is going to come and watch a Warsaw team loose to a club from Krynica (pop 30,000)? And who in their right mind would want to put that thing on TV? Well, it would be a much different story if Warsaw fans had a change to see their team compete with even a mediocre team from Prague or Moscow... Yes, but Moscow and Prague fans would never want to see their team lose to a team from Warsaw !! That's why such a "product" wouldn't work. (Moreover an international league means you stop developing the ice hockey league within Poland and destroy the small ice hockey culture then) That's why EHL collapsed - teams from Sweden and Finland snobbed teams from "weaker" nations. If everyone acts like that (and it's the case), ice hockey will never develop. People in the stands have to give up this "We are superior and don't care about those" feelings. That's the problem. In the sport you have to stand for your team when they're winning and when they're losing. It's hard in Warsaw because it's a big city and there is no ice hockey culture. It's hard to create it. May be by linking the team with a part of the city with a strong identity, so that people could gather behind the team as they do in provincial teams ? You can't rely on results. There are no surprises in ice hockey, no Greece winning Euro, so you have to ensure people watch it for the beauty of the sport and not for the hope of Poland being world champion. And it's really, really hard on TV cause viewers don't see the puck. About the other point you mention (no jerseys sold and so on), it's also because no one is volunteer and/or motivated to do it. Our society becomes more and more individualistic, and voluntary help is hard to get. Less and less people accept to work for nothing. They consider themselves as customers and have no respect for the dedication of others.
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Post by Graham on Jul 12, 2004 6:21:44 GMT -5
Yes, but Moscow and Prague fans would never want to see their team lose to a team from Warsaw !! That's why such a "product" wouldn't work. I completely agree. Selling these to the weaker countries isn't the issue. Persuading HV71 that this is a better competition than the Eliteserien is the issue. The only way to get a pan-European league is to 1. Raise the standard of the weaker nations so that there is a consistency in quality from league to league 2. Get so much money in the sport that only 2 or 3 teams compete for the league title year after year Both of those exist in football, and yet football's future is in trouble because costs are climbing and fans are leaving the sport... Graham.
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Post by pyr on Jul 12, 2004 12:49:48 GMT -5
I completely agree. Selling these to the weaker countries isn't the issue. Persuading HV71 that this is a better competition than the Eliteserien is the issue. The only way to get a pan-European league is to 1. Raise the standard of the weaker nations so that there is a consistency in quality from league to league 2. Get so much money in the sport that only 2 or 3 teams compete for the league title year after year Both of those exist in football, and yet football's future is in trouble because costs are climbing and fans are leaving the sport... Graham. Agree, but what did you mean with the football leaving fans?
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Post by Jazz on Jul 12, 2004 19:32:55 GMT -5
- main date was 1968, Olympic Games in Grenoble, with games broadcasted live (like legendary Czechoslovakia-USSR duels) on the only French TV channel. French team finished dead last, but it was a detail. An entire country discovered the sport. Hey Marc, good and elaborate responses! I've still got some questions for you: Let me ask you this: When hockey is in a high profile position, like the Olympics, does it help? More specifically, the 2002 SL Olympics, were hockey games shown on French TV (not just the French games, but games of the medal round as well?)? What was the response (if any) to a 7-1 loss to Slovakia in the placement game when Marian Hossa put on a great preformance? Does a loss like that put off the population that is not otherwise keen on the sport? Is the World Cup next month going to be available on TV or satellite? In 2002 Canadian-born Luc Tardif.....created stable leagues whose formula won't change every year, bringing back a real promotion/relegation system, a salary cap, ensuring the clubs are financially well. There were obliged to decreased the level at first, with only one game a week because with 16 teams many players were students or worked, but there was no other choice.....Tardif has clear ideas, he wants to put sport first, and not the "be friend to the leaders" system, where some teams were favoured because they had money, because they were big cities, because they had relations... Now everyone is equal. But there are still people who want to change everything every year, who don't care about the others, who think abour their interests first. So is Tardiff the leader of the French Hockey federation now, or is his title still unofficial? What about the IIHF's deadline for the French to have an actual federation for hockey alone, not an umbrella one for "Winter Sports" - is a French federation in place yet? How do you think this will help once it is in place? Finally, how did you get to become such an avid fan over there?
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Post by SuperJ on Jul 12, 2004 20:06:26 GMT -5
Well, I don't think that best teams in Europe are crazy about competing with weaker ones, either. But that in itself is an issue of how such an international league should be running and not a definite 'NO' to the whole idea. Of course, I'm looking from the Polish perspective here but I think other countries are in a similar position. Poles will not be able to form any good league any time soon when left on their own. Even if some multi-milionaire messiah appears on the horizon willing to blow lots of money on a worthless Polish championship and even if he finds two other of his kind, the three of them will be far, very far from a professional league. And I do not see how 8-10 of such guys would suddenly appear, especially that I still have to see one. The fact of the matter is that Polish championship costs as little as half a milion USD and only three teams in Poland are able to come up with that kind of money. That's no competition at all and the pro league that our Hockey Association dreams of creating is very far away. What makes a team like Oswiecim try to improve if they get 6 (six) championships in a row? The truth is that nothing makes them move and even though they have adequate funds they are not improving at all which is clearly shown by their Continental Cup or Interleague record. What they need is a established - valuable title to go for. Speaking of Interleague... I wasn't very pleased to hear about it due to the format of the competition. But the teams have shown they want and need that kind of challenge. All I ask is that we build on it. Last season there were teams from Poland, Hungary, Slovenia and Chroatia participating. I'm hearing that Austria wants in next season. I'm hoping weaker teams from Slovakia will also be interested. If you are interested in the league, go to www.polishhockey.com . Switch to English Version and then click on IL (dark horizontal bar). My home team would probably never be able to participate in such a venture. Even so, I hope one day it will happen.
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Post by Marc on Jul 13, 2004 8:28:49 GMT -5
More specifically, the 2002 SL Olympics, were hockey games shown on French TV (not just the French games, but games of the medal round as well?)? What was the response (if any) to a 7-1 loss to Slovakia in the placement game when Marian Hossa put on a great preformance? Does a loss like that put off the population that is not otherwise keen on the sport? Is the World Cup next month going to be available on TV or satellite? There wasn't any response to this placement game as I don't think it was shown on free TV... The best answer to your point is the Lillehammer Olympic Games. Great games against USA and Canada in prime time, optimistic commentators about qualification, and then 4th game against Italy on Saturday afternoon, big loss, and the end of the game was not broadcasted ! They stop showing it and switched to other competitions. Last games were not on TV at all... Salt Lake City 2002 : the ice hockey final between Canada and USA, in prime time... at least it should be so. No, the public television decided to show a "summary of the games" instead. Switched at the last moment. Cable TV Eurosport broadcast the game at midnight (it was supposed to be live on public television...) So I had to see the final on German public television (ZDF) which was by chance included in the cable channels I got ! So I considered paying my taxes in Germany... It was a small scandal and they got a lot of angry letters... But too late to change anything... Anyway a game wouldn't make the difference. There were 5 million people in Albertville to see quarter final France-USA, but most people follow ice hockey only in Olympic Games (if they do at all) >Is the World Cup next month going to be available on TV or satellite? I asked the question on another thread, so I still wonder. I doubt it. So is Tardiff the leader of the French Hockey federation now, or is his title still unofficial? What about the IIHF's deadline for the French to have an actual federation for hockey alone, not an umbrella one for "Winter Sports" - is a French federation in place yet? How do you think this will help once it is in place? IIHF deadline is unofficial. They wouldn't really exclude France. It was intented to put pressure, but the ministery's opinions is more important. They have enough problems with one federation which already went bankruptcy, they don't want it to split (and to see the problems split). Tardif was elected as the director of newly formed, official AEHF (Autorité Exécutive du Hockey Français) ten days ago. He should care of all hockey-related things within French ice sports federation - and have his own (tight) budget to do it. Sure it will help. If I'm an avid fan, it's because I bought one day a magazine (almost by hazard) and I went to a team which was close to my home and got hooked. Then, little by little, i got interested about ice hockey history, I created a website, and so on... About Poland : there is no way for professional hockey there. The basis is too small. The whole league structure has to be developed first. Being "pro" is the consequence of a good development, not a cause. Oswiecim has to stay in national league because it wouldn't make any sense without them. But they should also seek for other challenges in parallel - and that's what they're doing with Interleague. I think small clubs from big nations decrease the interest of such cross-border leagues : they deviate the meaning of the competition, they don't get interest in their own country and they devaluate the image of the league. And I don't think Austrian teams will take part - they've always been against such international leagues since the fall of Alpenliga as they focused on creating a solid own league (with problems evoked up there).
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Post by Graham on Jul 13, 2004 9:12:01 GMT -5
Agree, but what did you mean with the football leaving fans? Football is seeing crowds get smaller in the major leagues (England, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.). The top teams are still supported as well as they have always been, and most of them are better supported than they were. A lot of anonymous Manchester United and Arsenal fans suddenly became public supporters when they started doing better! But, even in the top league, the clubs at the bottom are struggling to bring in fans. It's a vicious circle. You don't have as much money as Man Utd, so you can't compete. Since you can't compete, you get fewer fans since only die hards will support a losing team. Because you get fewer fans, you get less income, so the gap between the top teams and you increases and so you get fewer fans, ad infinitum... Graham.
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Post by pyr on Jul 13, 2004 10:06:58 GMT -5
Yes, but does somebody in Southampton or Sunderland support the ManU or Arsenal? Is there no local pride? I´ve read the gate-money are the problem. The prices of tickets raised too much and now the native fans are suddenly gone...
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Post by pyr on Jul 13, 2004 10:09:35 GMT -5
What was the response (if any) to a 7-1 loss to Slovakia in the placement game when Marian Hossa put on a great preformance? If someone doesn´t know what is Gurj talking about, just look: www.ninajovsvet.okweb.sk/multimedia/Hossa.mpg
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Post by Graham on Jul 14, 2004 6:08:27 GMT -5
Yes, but does somebody in Southampton or Sunderland support the ManU or Arsenal? Is there no local pride? I´ve read the gate-money are the problem. The prices of tickets raised too much and now the native fans are suddenly gone... There is a general belief in the UK that people in Manchester support Manchester City. People in Guildford (about 300kms south of Manchester and the main town in one of the wealthiest counties in the country) support Manchester United. Unfortunately, the majority of people are only interested in supporting a winning team. It doesn't matter where you are from, you have to support either Arsenal, Man United or Liverpool. Chelsea are still largely supported by Londoners, but that is likely to start changing. In Scotland, you support Rangers or Celtic. My own team of Forfar Athletic are from a small town of 13,000 people. Recently, the minor teams in Scotland have seen their crowds rise a little, to the stage where Forfar can now expect 600 people a game (3 years ago, 400 would have been regarded as a good crowd). But, there are still significantly more Rangers and Celtic fans in the town than there are Forfar Athletic fans. Graham.
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Post by pyr on Jul 14, 2004 7:59:57 GMT -5
Yeah, in the past when we had great teams (yes we had ) nearly every slovak was fan of Slovan or Spartak, but (!) also of his home town team. And they really supported their home teams, and visited their stadiums, even they were fans of one of the Big one. Doesn´t this happen in England?
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Post by Graham on Jul 14, 2004 10:04:27 GMT -5
No. You support Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool and take a holier than thou attitude towards those fans who support the weaker local team.
Graham.
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